Self healing for Healers
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Self healing for Healers
In my opinion all units that can heal others should also be able to self heal. Elf shaman for example: If she can heal another unit for 4 hp why she cant self heal for the same 4hp?
It doent makes sense at all. Also, I dont think they would be overpowered with this.
It doent makes sense at all. Also, I dont think they would be overpowered with this.
Re: Self healing for Healers
It would be quite unwise to enforce this. When you remove possibility to add healing allies and other own units normally and force regen, then healing-types will just be done with events.
I feel it is best to allow creators choose which units unit with certain ability should heal. And for elvish shaman this has been picked to be adjacent allied or own units.
I feel it is best to allow creators choose which units unit with certain ability should heal. And for elvish shaman this has been picked to be adjacent allied or own units.
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Re: Self healing for Healers
Healing and regeneration are both powerful abilities, so combining them would make all the healers more powerful. (Whether or not someone considers that overpowered is a separate issue.) That would upset the balance of the game, and the difficulty of all the campaigns that use those units. What would be better would be to invent a sensible reason why the mainline healers can't heal themselves. Maybe they took a vow never to use their magic to benefit themselves, or maybe healing energy must pass completely through one person before it can be applied. I bet someone could come up with a better idea than either one of those though.
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Re: Self healing for Healers
@ beetlenaut
I must say that your points are strong in a balancing perspective. I would say that many research and time would be needed to implement/balance something like this but in the long run i think the benefits would pay the cost.
I would like to share my opinion about pros, cons and solutions:
PROS
CONS
I must say that your points are strong in a balancing perspective. I would say that many research and time would be needed to implement/balance something like this but in the long run i think the benefits would pay the cost.
I would like to share my opinion about pros, cons and solutions:
PROS
- Gameplay more logical and balanced.
More rpg like.
Will be an improvement, in general.
CONS
- Lot of time researching the effects on balance.
Players will need to adapt to new changes.
Campaings will be affected.
- Increase cost to recruit units with healing.
Increase xp to advance to next levels.
Reduce healing to +3 and +6.
Reduce combat stats (hp, attack etc).
Re: Self healing for Healers
I think self-healing (regeneration) makes healing units too powerful. I would not give healers that ability in general.Sir_Cryer wrote:@ beetlenaut
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS
- Increase cost to recruit units with healing.
Increase xp to advance to next levels.
Reduce healing to +3 and +6.
Reduce combat stats (hp, attack etc).
If we look at the shaman, then it is already hard enough to level one up. They are already weak, too, so reducing combat stats or increasing XP seems a bad solution. Healing +3 makes healing much weaker, which leaves us with increasing the recruitment cost.
I think it may be worth exploring this in an add-on, but regenerating healers would probably be too powerful in long campaigns and on large maps (where you can retreat and recover).
Re: Self healing for Healers
BfW balance-maintainers don't seem to like "moving a unit-type's strength from one point to another" just for narrative flavors (there's a rule for core/mainline contents called WINR) - if Elvish Shamans are too weak, they would just give them some more HP or damage.
If you wish to read more, let's see more into PROS in your post.
Also, game-design-wise, having both of "healers with Regenerate" and "healers without Regenerate" would help giving units characteristics. Currently, Tabib (Khalifate) seem to be "the Regen-Tank Healer" with Regenerate and relatively high HP.
If you wish to read more, let's see more into PROS in your post.
More on Pros:
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Re: Self healing for Healers
Well I must agree again, very good points.
However its very hard to find a game where healers cant cure their own wounds becuz it doenst makes sense. It doenst follows the logical path. Tell me a famous and big game where it happens that healers cant self heal. And to me this is the biggest point because it is common sense. This is what anyone would expect to happens.
I will not discuss balacing because you're all right and i dont have enough time or knowledge to test it properly. Thanks for your feedback.
However its very hard to find a game where healers cant cure their own wounds becuz it doenst makes sense. It doenst follows the logical path. Tell me a famous and big game where it happens that healers cant self heal. And to me this is the biggest point because it is common sense. This is what anyone would expect to happens.
I will not discuss balacing because you're all right and i dont have enough time or knowledge to test it properly. Thanks for your feedback.
Re: Self healing for Healers
I know some examples.Sir_Cryer wrote:However its very hard to find a game where healers cant cure their own wounds becuz it doenst makes sense. It doenst follows the logical path. Tell me a famous and big game where it happens that healers cant self heal. And to me this is the biggest point because it is common sense. This is what anyone would expect to happens.
Things from other games:
EDIT - This page may help.
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Re: Self healing for Healers
If healer heals itself, it should take regeneration as ability. ( like khalifate doctor)
Edit: also paladin in warcraft can only use holy light on living ally ( he cant heal undead nor himself)
oh wait, why do our curers in wesnoth heal undead anyway lol
Edit: also paladin in warcraft can only use holy light on living ally ( he cant heal undead nor himself)
oh wait, why do our curers in wesnoth heal undead anyway lol
Re: Self healing for Healers
Hey Guys.
I had the same thought few days ago, and know I found this thread.
So, whats about a higher rest-regeneration for healers ? in my opinion healers should be able to use their healing power for themselfs. But i see the balancing aspect as well. So maybe it would be a good deal. They could heal themselfs, but only if you give them time for it. Maybe a +4 resting-heal. Does'nt need to be more.
I had the same thought few days ago, and know I found this thread.
So, whats about a higher rest-regeneration for healers ? in my opinion healers should be able to use their healing power for themselfs. But i see the balancing aspect as well. So maybe it would be a good deal. They could heal themselfs, but only if you give them time for it. Maybe a +4 resting-heal. Does'nt need to be more.
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Re: Self healing for Healers
Wouldn't healers be incredibly tanky if this is implemented? I mean making them slower to level up would make them too weak. I think the current system works fine.
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Re: Self healing for Healers
Just for comparison (on 1.16):
Dune Luminary (DL) vs Mage of Light (MoL)
Both are L3, moves=5, can heal +8 and cure poison.
Below the Dune Luminary values are first then Mage of Light (i.e. DL/MoL)
Cost: 38 / 60
HP: 52 / 47
XP(*): 39+65=104 / 54+136=190
* Total for L3 ( L1->L2 + L2->L3 )
Alignment: Liminal / Lawful
Melee: 9x4 (impact) / 7x3 (impact)
Ranged: None / 12x3 (Arcane)
Resistances:
blade: -10% / 0%
pierce: 20% / 0%
impact: 0% / 0%
fire: 0% / 0%
cold: 0% / 0%
arcane: 20% / 60%
Other abilities:
Regenerates +4 (also cures poison) / Illuminates
Cost-wise you could buy 3 DLs for the price of 2 MoLs (and have change) plus DLs have roughly 10% more hp than MoL.
Also MoLs need almost double the amount of xp to reach L3.
The two big advantages of MoL over DL is a powerful ranged attack and illuminates which favours lawfuls and hinders chaotics (though it doesn't differentiate between friend and foe...).
However, not sure this compensates for the DL's vastly lower xp and recruitment cost coupled with the fact that even at L1 (Dune Herbalist) they have regenerates +4 and heals +4 which greatly improves their durability and utility respectively. They are also cheaper (14 vs 20 gold) and tougher (32 vs 24 hp) than Mages.
One way regenerating healers might be more entertaining (and balanced IMHO) is if they had to be on full health to heal others, so if wounded or poisoned their healing ability is turned on themselves and they regerate. Once on full health their healing energies "turn outwards" and can be used to heal comrades and allies. This is in contrast to MoLs that even if poisoned and on 1hp can still heal adjacent allies. I think this would bring some balance to the game whilst still allowing significant differences between the healers.
How to justify why some healers can't heal themselves? Well, it's magic, innit?
Just my tuppence worth.
Cheers!
-- Spannerbag
Dune Luminary (DL) vs Mage of Light (MoL)
Both are L3, moves=5, can heal +8 and cure poison.
Below the Dune Luminary values are first then Mage of Light (i.e. DL/MoL)
Cost: 38 / 60
HP: 52 / 47
XP(*): 39+65=104 / 54+136=190
* Total for L3 ( L1->L2 + L2->L3 )
Alignment: Liminal / Lawful
Melee: 9x4 (impact) / 7x3 (impact)
Ranged: None / 12x3 (Arcane)
Resistances:
blade: -10% / 0%
pierce: 20% / 0%
impact: 0% / 0%
fire: 0% / 0%
cold: 0% / 0%
arcane: 20% / 60%
Other abilities:
Regenerates +4 (also cures poison) / Illuminates
Cost-wise you could buy 3 DLs for the price of 2 MoLs (and have change) plus DLs have roughly 10% more hp than MoL.
Also MoLs need almost double the amount of xp to reach L3.
The two big advantages of MoL over DL is a powerful ranged attack and illuminates which favours lawfuls and hinders chaotics (though it doesn't differentiate between friend and foe...).
However, not sure this compensates for the DL's vastly lower xp and recruitment cost coupled with the fact that even at L1 (Dune Herbalist) they have regenerates +4 and heals +4 which greatly improves their durability and utility respectively. They are also cheaper (14 vs 20 gold) and tougher (32 vs 24 hp) than Mages.
One way regenerating healers might be more entertaining (and balanced IMHO) is if they had to be on full health to heal others, so if wounded or poisoned their healing ability is turned on themselves and they regerate. Once on full health their healing energies "turn outwards" and can be used to heal comrades and allies. This is in contrast to MoLs that even if poisoned and on 1hp can still heal adjacent allies. I think this would bring some balance to the game whilst still allowing significant differences between the healers.
How to justify why some healers can't heal themselves? Well, it's magic, innit?
Just my tuppence worth.
Cheers!
-- Spannerbag
Re: Self healing for Healers
Better resting-heal as an ability or trait could be nice indeed.Bitron wrote: ↑October 29th, 2015, 3:16 pm So, whats about a higher rest-regeneration for healers ? in my opinion healers should be able to use their healing power for themselfs. But i see the balancing aspect as well. So maybe it would be a good deal. They could heal themselfs, but only if you give them time for it. Maybe a +4 resting-heal. Does'nt need to be more.
In general BTW, not necessarily for Healers.
Re: Self healing for Healers
Perhaps a new ability could be useful here? So not all healers get "better rest"
or "meditation" or something, but if a campaign author thinks it would be nice to
have for some units then this could become possible too. And it would only be
used if the healer is not moving and not healing some other unit or so, e. g. just
focus on himself for this turn.
The balancing concern could be kept in mind by having that ability not be too
powerful, e. g. heal less than the per-round heal ability. Or something like that.
or "meditation" or something, but if a campaign author thinks it would be nice to
have for some units then this could become possible too. And it would only be
used if the healer is not moving and not healing some other unit or so, e. g. just
focus on himself for this turn.
The balancing concern could be kept in mind by having that ability not be too
powerful, e. g. heal less than the per-round heal ability. Or something like that.