The South Guard (Revised)

[ForestDragon]

[EDITED, this was an unfinished version of the next post that I accidentally hit send on early, but can't delete now]

[ForestDragon]

Dalas's version sounds pretty interesting, and the idea of "appeal to both veterans and newbies" is a very respectable one. Most of it seems fairly reasonable, but there are two main points I disagree on:

Not really sure about killing off two named characters at once in 6a, leaving the spotlight on Gerrick there is probably fine. Maybe she can provide some elf reinforcements in 7a, to further solidify the elf-path status.

Another thing I disagree with the Dalas version is Gerrick now joins the player right before the end. I feel like what made his sacrifice work so well in the original is that players spent a long time with him on the team beforehand. Without some buildup new players won't feel the same impact of that moment as players who remember the old TSG.

[Lexa04]

I like version of Dalas, especially the part where the endings of bandit's and elven branches are swapped. It makes more sense from a story perspective, shows Ethiliel's greater attachment to her teacher, and at least doesn't show the elves as idiots.

But I also agree with ForestDragon that in this version, Sir Gerrick's sacrifice doesn't seem as emotional as in the original, because he only joins at the end and the player doesn't really have any attachment to him. But I think that in the current state, such actions from Captain Mari will have a greater impact. Firstly, we have known her much longer and spent much more time with her, and secondly, after that, Deoran will become new commander of the South Guard and finally in his own campaign will get a chance to show himself in action as a leader.

Also, btw, I recently realised that name of campaign no longer makes sense. The South Guard? What's wrong with it? Now it just exists, everything is fine with it. In the original, there was a tragedy where only a few soldiers were left, and Deoran, by chance, had to take command of them, although he had neither experience nor rights to do so, but there was simply no one else. And over time you could saw his growth as a person, and by the end of the campaign, you could say that he definitely deserve to be a commander

[Dalas120]

I agree with you both about Sir Gerrick's sacrifice - it's a lot less meaningful when he hasn't been with the player. I'm not sure a great solution here. Do any of you have suggestions? Some of my concerns are:

• Gerrick and Mari fill very similar story roles, as "generic military adviser guy", meaning their narrative roles have a lot of overlap.

• having both Gerrick and Mari in the same party early-on adds a lot of complexity at a time when players are still struggling to figure out spearmen. As a tutorial, I think it's important to keep the number of "special" units to a minimum (I'd also support making Mari a swordsman, stats-wise, for this same reason).

• since this would be the suggested beginner campaign, I believe it's important to introduce a female character quickly, which I would guess (but don't know for sure) is why she was added in the first place. Doesn't need to be Mari, necessarily - I suppose we could possibly replace her S1 role with Gerrick and move Ethiliel into S2? Not sure if that makes sense or not (plus Yumi's spent some time on Mari's sprite).

[Mirion147]

To me there are 3 roles that can be/ and pretty much are filled in TSG.

1. The Boyscout (Deoran): New to command, the military life has been romanticized to him, and while he likely knows the names of many strategists of Wesnoth History, and even the names of some of their strategies. He's never seen them take shape, he's never seen what happens when they fail, and he's never heard the ring of steel on steel shattering his ears as blood drips into his eyes. He's young, eager, and faultlessly loyal.

2. The Commander (Mari): Battlehardened, sesensetized to the trials of court. Cares only about doing the job and serving the crown how she sees she is only capable of doing. She is the tenured officer who surged through the ranks and has been the backbone of many a battle and the mastermind gaining a foothold over her enemies time and again, and though she knows she's being used, she will not allow innocents to die or the kingdom she loves to fall (think Uthred of Bebbenburg [spelling] )

3. The Burnout (Gerrick): Has been a low level officer for longer than most soldiers serve, knows how to translate the feelings of the common soldiers to the language of the officers. Almost looked at as the mascot of the army. Will put it all on the table and be blunt to the officer when he/she needs it. Will be the first to stand up and defend that officer, even he'll obviously have disagreements with the goals and actions of the crown. (Idk what his name is but if you've ever seen the movie "gettysburg" you'll probably know who I'm talking about)

[nemaara]

I don't really like explaining everything to everyone as it will bias people and takes a whole bunch of time, but seems like it's necessary. I will do it this once because there are a lot of issues that I do not think have been considered.

S02, Westin Town: similar to the current revision's implementation, but:
- fewer characters and dialogue. A tease of the wider Wesnoth universe, not too much of a lore dump in-and-of-itself. IMO teases are great - readers fill in the blanks with whatver kind of world they enjoy playing in.
- we learn that bandits have been recruiting undead, which poses a serious problem.
- we're introduced to 2 named characters: Sir Gerrick (the local guard captain), and Minister Hylas (the local priest). Neither of these characters join you, yet.
- we learn that Magistrate Fiore and his daughter Asheviere have fled the region, and have sought audience with the king
--Sir Gerrick seems like a great guy. Gerrick is very hesitant to speak ill of Fiore, but we get hints that he's not the best ruler.

• A lower amount of already optional dialogue doesn't really appeal to people who want to read it? Or are you suggesting Wesnoth can only be a battle game? Remember the text is entirely optional.

• Gerrick and Hylas not joining you reduces their role even further than what I have now. We have no time to connect to them as we won't be using them for most of the campaign.

• Not introducing Asheviere and Fiore in this campaign means a new player and even we have no introduction to their characters for later. It's not like we use them in TDG much and this is the time to get the setup for Asheviere's backstory. Furthermore, if they have fled because the situation is so dire, do you really think Garard is going to see them as useful to Wesnoth/Weldyn?

• The point of setting it up as an alliance between Westin and Weldyn is to set it up so that Westin is important enough that Garard puts resources into it, and that Asheviere is used as a pawn to clinch that alliance. If Westin is that small and unimportant, such that petty bandits are a threat to it itself, then I doubt a powerful king ruling an empire would do much beyond sending some knights to clear out the area - certainly not seek or allow the daughter of a no-name local magistrate to be high up in his court (and become his queen at some point). If Westin is relatively larger and important, then the scale of the conflict is too large, as we have 2 large scale conflicts depicted in the subsequent TDG and AoA, and even Liberty is not that small with the fall of Halstead.

• The scale of conflict is important because if every campaign depicts a serious assault where a city is either razed or under threat on Wesnoth's lands, that reduces the emotional impact of seeing it happen after a while. Specifically in this case, because the enemy is undead, that cheapens the impact of EI to me.

• Why introduce Mari in S1? Because it makes no logical sense for Garard to send just a junior commander with little experience to solve a problem he views as important or relatively major. On the flip side, if he thinks it's minor or easily resolved, then that takes a lot more exposition to show that he has been manipulated or given bad information by Fiore. Or he could just be plain incompetent, but I don't like that as part of his character. He's still a king and still should have a basic level of competency and regal demeanor.

• Why not use Sir Gerrick? To me, Sir Gerrick is a Westin local, knows the area, and more closely tied to the South Guard. So it doesn't make sense to have him be from Weldyn first. And a new player should have at least one character they can control that they can more easily connect with. Mari increases that diversity just a little bit, though perhaps not even enough.

S04, Vale of Tears: same as the current revision's implementation, except:
- Ethiliel has no bodyguards (reduces complexity; fewer new units the player needs to learn)
- Mari and Ethiliel don't get along well at all.

• Ethiliel already has no bodyguards in this version.

S05, Blight: similiar to the current revision's implementation, but:
- the player learns to recruit fencers. They're fairly good in forest, so this seems like a good time to introduce them.
- Bandit leader (Urza Afalas) recruits Thugs+Footpads, and offers an alliance as soon as you spot him
-- Ethiliel wants you to kill Urza. On the other side, Mari thinks the elves are too soft/untrustworthy - allying with the bandits is much more pragmatic.
-- if you fight (Elf Path), Mari leaves, furious. She returns to Westin to make an unfavorable report to Gerrick/Hylas
-- if you ally (Bandit Path), Ethiliel leaves, furious. You don't gain control of the bandits or their leader

- the southwest undead only recruit Walking Corpses, while Mebrin recruits both Walking Corpses and Ghouls (this is the player's first introduction to poison. include tutorial elements).
- when you reach Mebrin, he starts to recruit Skeletons and Skeleton Archers (this is the player's first introduction to skeleton resist units; include tutorial elements).
- when Mebrin is defeated, he begins to cast an uber-spell (something with elven magic, perhaps), that would annihilate his soul but raise a large army of undead
-- if you have Ethiliel (Elf Path), she hesitates. There's argument, and Mebrin has time to finish his uber-spell. Mebrin dies, and a bajillion undead appear. The player's forces run away, in a cutscene.
-- if you don't have Ethiliel (Bandit Path), Urza Afalas finishes off Mebrin mid-spell, and he crumbles to dust. Mari comments that Ethiliel and the elves will be furious, and the party returns towards Westin.

• Fencers are connected to nobility as a lore unit, plus where would we get them this deep in the forest? Gameplay-wise it's a good idea but I fail to see how it would logically work.

• I see you want to change Mari's character significantly from what I've made her. You'd need to rewrite her then.

• An uber spell (something with elven magic) sounds like it comes very much out of nowhere. How did a peaceful sage get so powerful in such a short time? Why does sacrificing his soul let him raise more undead? Is that alluded to anywhere else in the campaign or lore?

• A huge army suddenly appearing conflicts with the rest of the campaign being smaller conflicts and seems very out of nowhere to me as well.

• As I mentioned yet another undead invasion cheapens the impact of EI. EI then becomes new elf path of TSG, redone on a larger scale.

----Elf Path:
S06a, Pebbles in the Flood:
- Mari returned to Westin, and told Sir Gerrick what's going on. Feeling the situation is out of control, Sir Gerrick led a few troops south to find Deoran. They encounter him in this scenario, fleeing from the undead.
- Sir Gerrick and Ethiliel (atoning for her misdeeds) hold off the undead, both dying in the process. Deoran returns to Westin and rallies their defenses.

S07a, Tides of War: same as the current mainline version
- The player gains control of Minister Hylas, who summons the city council to help defend (same as the current mainline version).
- the player learns to recruit Heavy Infantrymen.

• So if there is a huge army of undead, enough to threaten Westin, then that needs to be depicted in game somehow (probably more units). I don't think that's something a newer player would have an easier job handling. You said it yourself, a newbie's big difficulty at first is probably managing their own army. Having more enemies makes that even harder.

• Ethiliel dying is a significant deviation from existing lore where she's alive at the end of the campaign. She will not be able to make a cameo anywhere else.

• The only character the player can connect with left is Deoran, which I personally if I were playing this as my first campaign would be miffed about. I didn't just want to control a young cavalry officer who has nothing in common with me. I'm certainly not representative of our active playerbase, but I do believe there are other gamers would would feel the same.

• Current Tides of War is way too hard for newbies, based on feedback I've seen before and talking with new players who tried it. But reducing the number of undead makes it look hilarious compared to pebbles in the flood. Why are there so many undead in one scenario and so few the next? If you just give the player more gold, we run into the same issue above. More gold doesn't necessarily help a new player.

• Reversing the paths is also a more significant deviation from existing lore.

----Bandit Path:
S06b, Long March: same as the current revision's implementation, but:
- Ethiliel is the one who's gotten the elves all angry, not Eltenmir.
- It's up to Deoran and Mari to get through the forest; they don't have a guide (or maybe we have Urza Afalas like in the mainline campaign).
- this is the player's first time seeing elvish fighers/archers. Possibly only use fighters/archers, not rangers/heroes/captains/etc.

S07b, Vengeance: same as the current revision's implementation
- upon returning to Westin, we reunite with Sir Gerrick and Minister Hylas.
- the town is being overrun by elves. We get a small keep and need to fight our way back into town, at which point the objective changes to survival and the player learns to recruit HI.
- Gerrick/Hylas/Mari are AI-controlled initially, defending Westin. Once the player reaches them perhaps the player gains control, or perhaps they stay as AI allies.
- Ethiliel is the antagonist here, not Eltenmir. When the scenario ends, Ithelden comes and calms Ethiliel down
-- Ethiliel knew in her heart that the humans were telling the truth; she felt a familiar presence in the dark magic that raised the undead. But she wasn't willing to admit it without Ithelden's help.

• I deliberately let you see what elvish units look like first in Blight because it gives the player time to see how they would play like before having to get ambushed by them in S6. If you don't do that, the first encounter with elvish units besides Ethiliel is an ambush that the player would have no experience playing against.

• Introducing Gerrick and Hylas at the end reduces their role in the campaign to barely anything.

• A complex scenario with objective changes and multiple phases is not new player friendly to me.

• Having Ethiliel outright murder a villager is too much for me. She's still a Shyde, not a warrior.

----Epilogue:
- Fiore returns, and has no appreciation for any of the sacrifices that have happened on his behalf to keep his town safe. Hint at events in motion in the wider world (not too much; keep the player wanting more).
- neither path is explicitly canon. Keep things vague in future scenarios: "oh yeah there was trouble down in Kerlath"

• Hinting at events in motion is fine but without having been introduced to Fiore before or much of the background as I have in the current Westin Town scenario, players are very unlikely to understand anything. They also wouldn't be connected to Fiore or Asheviere at all in any way since this is the first time we would meet them.

Also, btw, I recently realised that name of campaign no longer makes sense. The South Guard? What's wrong with it? Now it just exists, everything is fine with it. In the original, there was a tragedy where only a few soldiers were left, and Deoran, by chance, had to take command of them, although he had neither experience nor rights to do so, but there was simply no one else. And over time you could saw his growth as a person, and by the end of the campaign, you could say that he definitely deserve to be a commander

• The campaign is still about the South Guard, whose banners Mari and Deoran fly. They, being the new commanders of the South Guard, take part in every single scenario.

• If you read the text, not everything is fine with the South Guard. Just because they haven't been wiped out means they have fulfilled their mission. The presence of bandits proves that.

• Having wrote the text for the version of TSG on 1.18, I can't really agree that Deoran grows over the campaign. He was and still is a static character. He just adds to a list of accomplishments, but I don't really see his personality or character as changing. He was capable from the start and remained capable.

In general too many people throwing in their ideas on what a story or character often ends up diluting said story or character and making it very not cohesive. It is extremely difficult to convey too many ideas in a short amount of space, especially in the medium of a game so it is a given we will need to toss out some ideas and focus on the core points.

[Dalas120]

I'm not necessarily trying to push my particular version, but you did ask multiple times for suggestions, particularly in the discord, no?

I do worry we might be getting a little hung up on minor bits of the Wesnoth world. In my experience, players tend to care most about a compelling story with interesting characters, even if the worldbuilding is a little off. Look at the incredible success of Harry Potter, for example.

In contrast, even the most logical and self-consistent world will still fall flat if players don't enjoy the characters and story. I'm not suggesting we throw logic out the window, but I do think that the onscreen characters, decisions, and story should take priority over the easier-to-handwave offscreen stuff.

I certainly think it's good to tie in with the Asheviere arc, but we shouldn't be subservient to it. At the moment, a large amount of TSG's expository budget is tied up in Asheviere, Fiore, Garard, etc, none of whom have any importance whatsoever in the plot of TSG.

Not introducing Asheviere and Fiore in this campaign means a new player and even we have no introduction to their characters for later. It's not like we use them in TDG much and this is the time to get the setup for Asheviere's backstory. Furthermore, if they have fled because the situation is so dire, do you really think Garard is going to see them as useful to Wesnoth/Weldyn?

Asheviere is planned to get an entire campaign revolving around her backstory and rise to power, no? Not to mention her introduction in TDG as "Garard's queen", which I think is perfectly reasonable for her limited involvement in that campaign.

The point of setting it up as an alliance between Westin and Weldyn is to set it up so that Westin is important enough that Garard puts resources into it, and that Asheviere is used as a pawn to clinch that alliance. If Westin is that small and unimportant, such that petty bandits are a threat to it itself, then I doubt a powerful king ruling an empire would do much beyond sending some knights to clear out the area - certainly not seek or allow the daughter of a no-name local magistrate to be high up in his court (and become his queen at some point). If Westin is relatively larger and important, then the scale of the conflict is too large, as we have 2 large scale conflicts depicted in the subsequent TDG and AoA, and even Liberty is not that small with the fall of Halstead.

I take it Garard's motivation for marrying Asheviere is absolutely essential to the plot of AA? It's certainly not meaningful for TSG, TDG, Liberty, or HttT.

Why introduce Mari in S1? Because it makes no logical sense for Garard to send just a junior commander with little experience to solve a problem he views as important or relatively major.

The original TSG storytext read "Displeased with Sir Loris' conduct, the king decided to send someone to investigate. Haldric summoned a young, but promising cavalry officer named Deoran for the task." Sending a young, promising officer seems perfectly reasonable to me, no?

I also don't see why we need to view Westin as relatively major - as you mentioned in other places, that causes concerns with scale. If it is major, it's also odd that no other campaigns involve it.

The scale of conflict is important because if every campaign depicts a serious assault where a city is either razed or under threat on Wesnoth's lands, that reduces the emotional impact of seeing it happen after a while. Specifically in this case, because the enemy is undead, that cheapens the impact of EI to me.

As I mentioned yet another undead invasion cheapens the impact of EI. EI then becomes new elf path of TSG, redone on a larger scale.

I agree that we should vary the scale of campaigns, but I don't feel that keeping the Tides of War as an undead-analogue to Vengeance is an issue. Out of ~20 campaigns, it's ok to have 1½ that end with undead attacking a city. I wouldn't suggest adding it if were new, but I see no reason to remove it either.

An uber spell (something with elven magic) sounds like it comes very much out of nowhere. How did a peaceful sage get so powerful in such a short time? Why does sacrificing his soul let him raise more undead? Is that alluded to anywhere else in the campaign or lore?

A huge army suddenly appearing conflicts with the rest of the campaign being smaller conflicts and seems very out of nowhere to me as well.

So if there is a huge army of undead, enough to threaten Westin, then that needs to be depicted in game somehow (probably more units). I don't think that's something a newer player would have an easier job handling. You said it yourself, a newbie's big difficulty at first is probably managing their own army. Having more enemies makes that even harder.

Perhaps "uber spell" and "huge army" is the wrong phasing; I should have been more clear. 20 Skeletons would be a terrifying threat on the scale of TSG, while not having any lore implications for other, more powerful, necromancers, nor for the world at large.

"huge" in the narrative sense only - more than the little South Guard is equipped to handle. Balance, of course, is easy to change and purely relative.

Ethiliel dying is a significant deviation from existing lore where she's alive at the end of the campaign. She will not be able to make a cameo anywhere else.

That's fair. I think it makes for a good story in TSG, but we probably don't want to risk UMC by killing her off.

Current Tides of War is way too hard for newbies, based on feedback I've seen before and talking with new players who tried it. But reducing the number of undead makes it look hilarious compared to pebbles in the flood. Why are there so many undead in one scenario and so few the next? If you just give the player more gold, we run into the same issue above. More gold doesn't necessarily help a new player.

Huh? Why not just have fewer undead in pebbles? I imagine we'd want to do that anyway, this being a newbie campaign.

Reversing the paths is also a more significant deviation from existing lore.

I'm not sure about this. AFAIK there's nowhere else in mainline or UMC that references the specifics of exactly which choice leads to exactly which path, and so far the only comment in this thread about it is positive. I also think it makes a lot more sense, rationally.

I deliberately let you see what elvish units look like first in Blight because it gives the player time to see how they would play like before having to get ambushed by them in S6. If you don't do that, the first encounter with elvish units besides Ethiliel is an ambush that the player would have no experience playing against.

I feel it's better to introduce elves in a fairly simple scenario with small armies (Long March), rather the complex and difficult Blight where we're already introducing new units and mechanics (Ghoul, Skeleton, Lich).

A complex scenario with objective changes and multiple phases is not new player friendly to me.

Agreed, good point.

Having Ethiliel outright murder a villager is too much for me. She's still a Shyde, not a warrior.

So we don't have her do that; easy fix.

I feel the important part is how we structure the overall narrative, how we give focus to the right characters, and how we flow naturally into the Asheviere arc. While trying to satisfy both newbies and veterans.

[octalot]

The scale of conflict is important because if every campaign depicts a serious assault where a city is either razed or under threat on Wesnoth's lands, that reduces the emotional impact of seeing it happen after a while. Specifically in this case, because the enemy is undead, that cheapens the impact of EI to me.

It's good to see this point from you, but it's not the vision of the SP campaigns that you've communicated - what's been presented from looking at the SP campaigns is that scenarios and entire campaigns will be removed from mainline unless they are part of an epic story, with the existing campaigns compressed by removing scenarios that were merely combat without a plot element. If you want suggestions for more paced use of dramatic elements, you need to make that vision clearer.

[nemaara]

Not getting caught on minor details also doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make it more logically consistent. I think you also haven't gotten my point that the majority of the interactions are optional.

I also don't think people see that a lot of the exposition that was originally said by the narrator is now said by Garard in the opening scene, which to me is more memorable when a character is relating it to you. Fiore is also very much on topic to TSG in Westin Town, providing the reasoning for going to see the elves (which you don't have as it's no longer a combat scenario). So I don't agree that it's unrelated exposition or off topic to the campaign. Garard says only one and a half lines off topic in the opening scene, which I can reduce further if you feel like it's too much. But the other 4-5 lines are all cover what was in the original narration.

If you don't like that the epilogue is too off topic to TSG I could agree, if you think it's a problem.

I'm not telling you what Garard's reason is for marrying Asheviere, I'm saying we know that happens (from HttT and Liberty), and as a king, he would have to have a good reason to. I don't see why he would logically marry the daughter of an unimportant noble of an unimportant region? Just because we don't need to explain the detailed logic also doesn't mean we also need to throw out my logic for him doing so. Is there a reason you want to go in the other direction of having less logical consistency?

By the way, one restriction I will place is that it's not a marriage out of love from his side.

Pebbles was a particularly annoying scenario because if you don't have enough undead, you can just defend forever as a veteran player. But a small amount of skeletons can easily overwhelm a new player. I tried balancing it more than 10 times and it's still a nightmare to try to get right. If someone else is better at balancing it than me, feel free to open a PR and try it out.

It's good to see this point from you, but it's not the vision of the SP campaigns that you've communicated - what's been presented from looking at the SP campaigns is that scenarios and entire campaigns will be removed from mainline unless they are part of an epic story, with the existing campaigns compressed by removing scenarios that were merely combat without a plot element. If you want suggestions for more paced use of dramatic elements, you need to make that vision clearer.

What about DiD, the campaign that I've worked by far the most on and doesn't fit into an epic story?

I'm under the impression that not just me, but new players and even a lot of existing players don't like the over amount of "defeat enemy leader" scenarios in our campaigns. Those are my main targets for reducing, but feel free to chime in if you think those are worth keeping.

[Dalas120]

Not getting caught on minor details also doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make it more logically consistent. I think you also haven't gotten my point that the majority of the interactions are optional.

I wouldn't have an issue with optional interactions that flesh out Deoran and co. My concern is that S02 has large number of interactions (yes, optional) with characters who don't feature at all in TSG. That is to say, chekhov's gun: "every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed."

Even though these characters are important in future campaigns, I feel it's a little misleading to let the player spend a lot of time getting to know them in TSG's S02, and to then have them be completely irrelevant for the rest of the campaign.

I also don't think people see that a lot of the exposition that was originally said by the narrator is now said by Garard in the opening scene, which to me is more memorable when a character is relating it to you.

I don't love Garard here, but I don't hate him either. He doesn't do a whole lot with the plot, but at least there's nice symmetry - he gives the player their mission, then later rewards them for completing it.

Fiore is also very much on topic to TSG in Westin Town, providing the reasoning for going to see the elves (which you don't have as it's no longer a combat scenario). So I don't agree that it's unrelated exposition or off topic to the campaign.

If he played this role in many scenarios I'd agree he was important, but as-is I feel that it just dilutes the pool of characters (and we already have a lot).

We could just as easily have Minister Hylas (like in the original) or Sir Gerrick explain the situation, which would help to establish his character as he joins the party moving forward. We could also have the elven messenger his/herself featured here, which would help introduce Wesnoth elves and leads into the very plot-important Ethiliel.

I'm not telling you what Garard's reason is for marrying Asheviere, I'm saying we know that happens (from HttT and Liberty), and as a king, he would have to have a good reason to. I don't see why he would logically marry the daughter of an unimportant noble of an unimportant region?

Perhaps he marries Asheviere precisely because she's unimportant? Nobles are pressuring him to find a wife, and each has their own candidate in mind. If he chooses any one noble, the others will all accuse him of favoritism, fearing their own position will become undermined. Instead he picks someone as far removed from Wesnoth politics as possible, someone from a little region who none of the other nobles will care about, thus maintaining the balance of power.

Also because Asheviere is someone Garard doesn't need to pay a whole lot of attention to - she has minimal connections and couldn't possibly become a threat, unlike a more politically savvy wife.

Is there a reason you want to go in the other direction of having less logical consistency?

I certainly don't see making things less logically consistent as a goal. But I do think that when we need to make trade-offs, we should sacrifice events that happen off-screen before we compromise events that happen on-screen. I feel like TSG is being heavily shaped by the need to conform with Asheviere/Garard/Fiore/etc, rather than being a strong story in-and-of-itself. A lot of new characters have been added, most of whom don't contribute much to the core plot of TDG, and almost all the established characters have been sidelined.

I made this mistake quite a bit in TDG, and I feel it's made the overall story weaker as a result, for which I'm still going to need a lot of changes (mostly dialogue) to try and improve.

Pebbles was a particularly annoying scenario because if you don't have enough undead, you can just defend forever as a veteran player. But a small amount of skeletons can easily overwhelm a new player. I tried balancing it more than 10 times and it's still a nightmare to try to get right. If someone else is better at balancing it than me, feel free to open a PR and try it out.

Off-hand, perhaps this could be solved by drastically reducing the available number of villages? IIRC Pebbles has no healers, so if you deprive the player of both healing and income they can't survive indefinitely. And then defeating a veteran doesn't require adding so many units that you overwhelm a new player. (ofc it's possible you already tried this and it didn't work)

Ramping up enemy strength over time helps too, of course, though that gets into worries of scale.

If we do ever plan to keep Pebbles, I'd be happy to take a look at balancing. Not much point now ofc.

I'm under the impression that not just me, but new players and even a lot of existing players don't like the over amount of "defeat enemy leader" scenarios in our campaigns. Those are my main targets for reducing, but feel free to chime in if you think those are worth keeping.

I agree with this; Wesnoth has lots of filler scenarios that are boring in terms of both gameplay and story.

EDIT: Yumi and I spoke on discord; all is well.

[Duke_Anax]

I'm under the impression that not just me, but new players and even a lot of existing players don't like the over amount of "defeat enemy leader" scenarios in our campaigns. Those are my main targets for reducing but feel free to chime in if you think those are worth keeping.

For me, it's not the abundance of "defeat the enemy leader" scenarios. It's the abundance of scenarios that are set up like multiplayer vs AI. The South Guard is an example of this and A Tale of Two Brothers also. When the story explains the local villagers getting harried by bandits/undead, I'd expect to see at least some villagers and enemies already on the map. Instead, we get empty maps with the commanders entrenched in their keeps. Liberty does a much better job at setting up a scene.

One peeve I have with the abundance of "defeat the enemy leader" scenarios is that it's often just defeat the leader. Doesn't matter if your forces are outnumbered and bleeding out as long as you charge for the killing blow. Assassination should be rarely a viable strategy, not the default. Imho most of those scenarios would be just fine as "defeat the enemy forces".

[ForestDragon]

I certainly think it's good to tie in with the Asheviere arc, but we shouldn't be subservient to it. At the moment, a large amount of TSG's expository budget is tied up in Asheviere, Fiore, Garard, etc, none of whom have any importance whatsoever in the plot of TSG.

Asheviere is planned to get an entire campaign revolving around her backstory and rise to power, no? Not to mention her introduction in TDG as "Garard's queen", which I think is perfectly reasonable for her limited involvement in that campaign.

I certainly don't see making things less logically consistent as a goal. But I do think that when we need to make trade-offs, we should sacrifice events that happen off-screen before we compromise events that happen on-screen. I feel like TSG is being heavily shaped by the need to conform with Asheviere/Garard/Fiore/etc, rather than being a strong story in-and-of-itself. A lot of new characters have been added, most of whom don't contribute much to the core plot of TDG, and almost all the established characters have been sidelined.

Exactly. This is a great summary of the main flaws of current TSG story so far.

I wouldn't have an issue with optional interactions that flesh out Deoran and co. My concern is that S02 has large number of interactions (yes, optional) with characters who don't feature at all in TSG. That is to say, chekhov's gun: "every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed."

Such dialog-focused scenarios also seem a bit questionable to be part of a tutorial, sets a wrong expectation that players will be getting such interactive dialog scenarios in other mainline campaigns often.

Even though these characters are important in future campaigns, I feel it's a little misleading to let the player spend a lot of time getting to know them in TSG's S02, and to then have them be completely irrelevant for the rest of the campaign.

Agreed. The current rework is turning TSG into little more than a TDG prequel at the expense of many aspects that made the old TSG what it was.

If he played this role in many scenarios I'd agree he was important, but as-is I feel that it just dilutes the pool of characters (and we already have a lot).

We could just as easily have Minister Hylas (like in the original) or Sir Gerrick explain the situation, which would help to establish his character as he joins the party moving forward. We could also have the elven messenger his/herself featured here, which would help introduce Wesnoth elves and leads into the very plot-important Ethiliel.

I agree Hylas or Gerrick would fit way better. Fiore really does feel like a waste of a character slot in my opinion. He seems to be only there to give even more screentime to the "tragic Asheviere backstory", and that is already stealing more than enough screentime from the original TSG characters.

[ForestDragon]

bugreport: In 1.0.4 Mebrin no longer has a portrait, which makes him go from look way too generic

[holypaladin]

Why introduce Mari in S1? Because it makes no logical sense for Garard to send just a junior commander with little experience to solve a problem he views as important or relatively major.

Honestly as I remember king didn't know what happens in South Guard and about it's problems so he just sent Deoran for investigation what happens there...

[Lord-Knightmare]

So, I played through it.

Here are my thoughts. It's mostly okay, but I find it that the Gerrick character and unit type has really low character value apart from being a punching bag for the enemy sides. There's no leadership anymore so calling him lieutenant, commander hardly makes senses here. Might as well call him: Veteran and Sentinel for unit types.

I guess the ending ties down to the other campaigns of this "Complicacies of the Crown" arc you got planned, so I wont remark on it as I have yet to see your full vision of them.