Fungus terrain bug
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Re: Fungus terrain bug
I'm not understanding why having both a mixed and non-mixed terrain is confusing. I'd think of the single fungus as a terrain where it's completely overgrown, so it can also be thought of as a mixed terrain of fungus underfoot and tree-size fungus, and that's what I'd hope could be visible to the user in the new sprite.
The difference between this and mixed fungus/flat is that on fungus/flat there's visible ground to put your feet on, even if you have to step on a mushroom then you know where the ground is under it. In single fungus then you have to test every step, unless you know the terrain like an elf knows the forest floor.
The difference between this and mixed fungus/flat is that on fungus/flat there's visible ground to put your feet on, even if you have to step on a mushroom then you know where the ground is under it. In single fungus then you have to test every step, unless you know the terrain like an elf knows the forest floor.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
@octalot
Ok, your explanation convinced me.
Ok, your explanation convinced me.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
Kinda weird conclusion since you posted a link to a discussion that shows that it was moved to a mixed terrain and subsequently reverted since it brought too many unwanted consequences. The way the Mushroom Grove is now is how it's intended to be for map balancing.
An additional mixed terrain would be nice if it can be made visually distinctive enough.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Re: Fungus terrain bug
Fungus transition in 1.12 doesn't look like a planned change and it is much later than forest transition.
iceiceice wrote: ↑July 15th, 2014, 3:54 pm You can read the irc logs from the day that this change was made, but if I remember correctly we were motivated to do this because the current system seems quite confusing for newbies. Best defense / worst movement is a good system that we use for forests, why do we do something completely different for mushroom groves? The "rule" that mushroom grove doesn't get this behavior isn't written anywhere... not very newbie friendly. I think the view was that we probably intended to do this when we introduced dual terrain types but forgot about the mushroom groves.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
Depends what you mean by planned or why that matters. It certainly was no bug.
Probably not useful to speculate on what iceiceice speculated on 5 years ago but mushroom grove was certainly not forgotten. Infact it was briefly a mixed terrain before 1.6 as well and was reverted.sergey wrote: ↑July 17th, 2019, 3:55 pmiceiceice wrote: ↑July 15th, 2014, 3:54 pm You can read the irc logs from the day that this change was made, but if I remember correctly we were motivated to do this because the current system seems quite confusing for newbies. Best defense / worst movement is a good system that we use for forests, why do we do something completely different for mushroom groves? The "rule" that mushroom grove doesn't get this behavior isn't written anywhere... not very newbie friendly. I think the view was that we probably intended to do this when we introduced dual terrain types but forgot about the mushroom groves.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Re: Fungus terrain bug
It's good that the fungus issue is not forgotten. Do you have any plans to solve it? Even if you consider that it is technically not a bug, the user experience looks like it is a bug.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
If it's possible to improve the visual aspect to make the functionality clearer to the player and less likely to trip them up that's great. I don't plan to implement that, no. I doubt I could if I tried.
My objection was to trying yet another time to convert mushroom grove to a mixed terrain and break maps. (As I said a new terrain as proposed in this thread can be perfectly fine.)
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Re: Fungus terrain bug
I asked in the art forums if someone can make that.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
- Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Fungus terrain bug
That's nonsensical. If it fully covers the base terrain, then it should be a base terrain. There's no point in making it an overlay if you can't put anything underneath it (or if it makes no difference visually what you put underneath it).
Indeed, if you want to split mushrooms into two types, then you should add two new terrains:octalot wrote: ↑July 16th, 2019, 2:06 pm I'm not understanding why having both a mixed and non-mixed terrain is confusing. I'd think of the single fungus as a terrain where it's completely overgrown, so it can also be thought of as a mixed terrain of fungus underfoot and tree-size fungus, and that's what I'd hope could be visible to the user in the new sprite.
The difference between this and mixed fungus/flat is that on fungus/flat there's visible ground to put your feet on, even if you have to step on a mushroom then you know where the ground is under it. In single fungus then you have to test every step, unless you know the terrain like an elf knows the forest floor.
- Base terrain
Uf[/u] which acts identically to current fungus. It might be called "Dense fungus", or maybe "Mycelium" or something.
, which is still mushroom (ie
[*]New overlay terrain [c]^Ufsaliasof=Uft
) but combines with the base terrain much like forest does. The S stands for "sparse". - Oh, and an illuminated version of
^Ufs
, because you can only have one overlay.
^Uf
and ^Ufi
, you could reuse those images for ^Ufs
. However, existing uses of ^Uf
in mainline multiplayer maps would be replaced by Uf
instead. (In campaign maps, ^Uf
might be replaced by ^Ufs
with a sprinkling of Uf
in any larger patches… but it would be handled on a case-by-case basis, rather than a mass find-and-replace.)You could even add a few additional variants of the base terrain that fit in with different types of surrounding terrains. For example,
Ufh
might be hilly fungus visually similar to current Hh^Uf
(but more fungal). It would help to avoid all the mushrooms suddenly looking identical in every MP map.Re: Fungus terrain bug
In a word: backward compatibility.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 5:04 amThat's nonsensical. If it fully covers the base terrain, then it should be a base terrain. There's no point in making it an overlay if you can't put anything underneath it (or if it makes no difference visually what you put underneath it).
The ^Uf overlay creates a non-mixed terrain hex. We can't change the stats of ^Uf hexes without breaking compatibility, so we must change the sprite to match the stats. We can add a Uf top-level terrain code, we can add an overlay that creates a mixed terrain fungus and re-uses the current sprites, that's all true; but right now, the sprite and stats of ^Uf don't match so we should change the sprite to match the stats.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
If the new sprite won't be created or accepted consider the next idea. Replace all hills+fungus, mountain+fungus, swamp+fungus, etc with flat+fungus. It will look less confusing and still nice since there is a lot of different flat terrains available.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
- Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Fungus terrain bug
I understand the desire for backwards compatibility, but I think leaving the existing terrain unchanged and adding new ones with the desired properties is a better way of maintaining it. Note that changing the sprite in itself is something like a compatibility break.josteph wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 5:30 am In a word: backward compatibility.
The ^Uf overlay creates a non-mixed terrain hex. We can't change the stats of ^Uf hexes without breaking compatibility, so we must change the sprite to match the stats. We can add a Uf top-level terrain code, we can add an overlay that creates a mixed terrain fungus and re-uses the current sprites, that's all true; but right now, the sprite and stats of ^Uf don't match so we should change the sprite to match the stats.
Re: Fungus terrain bug
Yeah, if the mushroom terrain is an overlay that isn't an overlay, that's too bad, but not much to be done for 1.14. Getting rid of the confusing visual cue of the base layer still makes sense though.
I agree with that too, so I've started something that should be fairly minimal change but still hides the base layer. I'll put it on github later, it's still got some glitches. BTW, can we stop calling terrain graphics images "sprites"? I guess it could be called a sprite, like almost anything in Wesnoth, but it's not pixel art, it doesn't move around, and it requires more than one image (usually).Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 2:13 pm Note that changing the sprite in itself is something like a compatibility break.
EDIT:
PR link ->https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4185
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| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
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Re: Fungus terrain bug
What would be the right term?
Re: Fungus terrain bug
I suppose we could use term Terrain Graphics, or shortened TG.