Problems with LOW-Hostile Mountains

[santi]

It is easiest and MUCH faster to wipe out the troll leader than to crawl to the signpost.

[AgentTBC]

I'm having trouble moving from normal difficulty to hard on this scenario. I played the first two scenarios on normal and ended up coming out of this one with 521 gold over the minimum, which would obviously make the rest of the campaign really really easy. So I started out on hard and I can't make a dent in it.

It looks to me like the troll AI on hard goes all out to avoid stepping on the Dwarf land. I've tried everything I could think of to get them to trigger the dwarves to take some of the pressure off me, but I can't do it. I even put an elven rider in the water with squares of dwarf land between the trolls and I, and the trolls don't attack to avoid stepping on dwarf land even though it's a guaranteed kill.

And my little elves can't stop the horde of level 3 trolls coming at me without the dwarves drawing them off. Anyone have some tips on getting the dwarves involved on hard under 1.5.9?

[santi]

Well, the (troll) ai has now been programmed to avoid dwarves. The original idea was to sacrifice a unit to entice the trolls to step on the dwarvish land to attack it. Nevertheless, even now(svn version 1.5.9 rev32568) the trolls may step on dwarvish land, but they do not go fro the dwarves.
Anyway, a replay may help:

[taemyr]

Anyway, a replay may help:

How do you start Hostile mountains with 224 gold and experienced troops?

I can get 229 gold if I only recruit 1 scout and runs for it, but then there will not be time to get any experienced troops.

[AgentTBC]

I agree: How do you start with that much gold AND a bunch of veteran troops on hard difficulty?

I can get some veteran troops... and start with 100 gold. Or I can start with 224 gold and no troops with any experience. To start with 220+ gold you have to finish in like 4 turns which doesn't give you any time to get that much experience.

edit: The elves got pretty lucky in that replay. The trolls only started with two level 3 trolls and I only see them start with 3+. And the trolls attacked 8 times on the turn they first moved in range and missed every time, while the elven sorceress hit with all 4 of her attacks against one of the level 3 trolls for two turns in a row. So that was rather a good break

[santi]

I am attaching a replay of scenario 1. I agree that normally I would have protected Landar a bit more, but remember that the sorceress as well as the archers are fighting in the forest with 70% defence and it takes two sucessful blows to kill it.
As a matter of fact I think the fact that the ai does not recruit only lv3 units makes the scenario harder.
As for the gold: You did kill the southern orcish leader and get some extra gold, did you not?

[santi]

Just to add, sorceresses and their higher forms are IMMENSELY useful in this campaign.

[AgentTBC]

Santi: I see the problem. This is an older version of the campaign, yes? You received 250 gold for killing the southern orc leader. In the newer version you only receive 50 gold for killing him on hard difficulty. That's a 200 gold difference which is why you started scenario 2 with so much gold.

The strategy you used is, unfortunately, no longer possible since it means you don't start scenario 2 with enough gold. You'd also have started with only 100 gold with the new versions.

So I'm still completely stumped how to start the second scenario with both veteran troops and enough gold to make it viable.

edit: other difference that matters - there are villages in the south in the new version, so your income will be lower. You had 18 units and an income of -1 after occupying a couple. In the new version you would have like 3 fewer villages so your income would be -5. You would actually have finished the scenario with barely any gold and thus started the next one with the minimum, 100.



As a followup, does anyone know when these change were made to Legend of Wesmere? I can't find it in any of the changelogs.

[taemyr]

Santi: I see the problem. This is an older version of the campaign, yes?

Nevertheless, even now(svn version 1.5.9 rev32568)

So not old version. New version. (newer than 1.5.9)
Specific diff; http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trun ... 7&r2=32643

Santi is the developer for LOW so he will in general have access to the current campaign. But mentioning that it now gives 200 gold more might have reduced confusion.

Edit: It might be a good idea to mention the gold somehow. There is no hint that killing the leader gives gold. So the best strategy is not apparent.

[AgentTBC]

Ahh, newer version. I gotcha. Yeah, if you give me 250 gold for killing that orc instead of 50 I can see a path to victory in Hostile Mountains. So I'll just wait for the new version.

[santi]

I think we will revert back to 50 gold. So I did (not yet in trunk) and with 50 gold looted from the southern orc is scenario 1, here are replays of both scenario 1 and 2 on hard (version 32820, from trunk). In scenario 2, again one might have been more protective of Landar(here I am giving the ai a better target in the water), but with a more conservative play, the scenario might take a round longer to win. What I am not too happy about is that the trolls seem a bit defensive(the lv3 trolls stay on the mountains on the left of the map) and maybe the dwarves become too agressive and rob me of some hp points for killing the troll leader
Anyway, here are the replays, showing that this is winnable with 50 gold looted

[santi]

and here is scenario 1 replayed also on hard

[taemyr]

I think we will revert back to 50 gold.

Will you revert minimal gold in scen 2 as well? (I think it used to be 100).

In scenario 2, again one might have been more protective of Landar(here I am giving the ai a better target in the water)

It's no problem as long as the AI is not programmed to target mission critical units. I get it at 40.96% ctk if the troll goes after him though, so it's very much playing the AI.

[santi]

Yes, I think it should, at least on hard;
and yes, you are right, playing as agressively as in the replay is playing the ai and assuming
it has not been programmed to target mission-critical units. Giving it a better target though is part of the strategy/tactics.

[taemyr]

Yes, I think it should, at least on hard;

Then this replay isn't really that helpful since it is 60 gold off. Considering the losses you did take I think you would have been in trouble if you had 3 units less to play with.

Edit: Also some generic questions; On scenario 1 you stop short of the river. This is usually sound, but in this case there are no orcs that can reach, so why not move all out. You end up with having only a few units capable of reaching orcs on the next turn.
And, why level your loyal fighter into a Hero? Loyal Champions are xp eaters and occationally at risk, Loyal Marshalls are xp givers and never needs to be put at risk.